SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

...it appears to me that pain is causing bias here.

Of course it is. Absolutely. I cannot imagine how it couldn't. And you clearly understand that. What honestly baffles me is why you seem to take it so personally and viscerally react to it.

I have a high need to be understood. I am very conscious of all the meta happenings, structures, and purposes in conversation. I am constantly looking for intent, motive, fairness, the different sides of things... who exactly is saying what, how they're saying it, body language (if visible), what's the connotation of each word they're choosing and why they might have chosen that one over another, what the larger and more specific contexts are, how the previous parts of the conversation factor in, whether I agree or not based on a variety of arguments and counter-arguments I tend to automatically generate, how I would respond in their place, how I instinctively want to respond, various generated arguments for and against my own responses, the tone I want to convey, the words I want to choose, their synonyms, and different connotations, different ways what I say could be taken and how to mitigate misunderstandings, how other people observing are perceiving and reacting to the what was communicated...And then I'm looking to see if I am understood, what got lost in translation or perceived differently than intended, how I could have communicated it better next time, whether that interpretation is reasonable, odd, or unfair, and whether the misunderstanding occurred with intent or not based on the other person's potential motives, and how I could shed light on the inner working of the conversation if I suspect maliciousness or anterior motives. Probably some other stuff that I forgot to mention.

So basically I'm hyper analytical about every minute interaction as a means of 1) trying to counter my AuDHD and socially function the way that is expected and most in line with my goals, 2) trying to gather as much data from the interaction as possible, and 3) trying to protect myself from manipulation.

Capricorn brain goes brrrr

I felt like I did really good this time with not getting too upset. I was, I think, pretty annoyed and even quite disgusted at some points, but I think I held it together, no? I did write up several other detailed responses to certain posts expounding on the micro-politics and conversational "power plays" I was seeing, and just decided they weren't really necessary or advantageous to me, so they didn't get posted. That feels big for me! I get self-back-pats.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 2:53 AM, Monday, May 18th]

Capricorn brain goes brrrr

So does the A-10.

What you described above seems absolutely exhausting. I can't imagine.

I felt like I did really good this time with not getting too upset.

All things considered, it's certainly an improvement. I've never heard anyone describe a thought process like yours, although I'd imagine a few people I've known throughout my life might have, if given the opportunity.

I have a high need to be understood.

I'm curious. Do you also have an equally powerful need to understand?

I'm sort of the opposite in this regard. I try to be understood, of course. What I'm more prone to is trying to understand.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 3:29 AM, Monday, May 18th]

Oh of course. If I don't understand something, it'll drive me nuts until I do. Like, how am I supposed to make future decisions with maximal ROI and minimal risks if I'm missing data? I need all the microscopic holes in my schemas to be filled in.

It does get a little tiring sometimes to think this way, especially if I come to a crossroads on a decision and the risks seem really with big any direction I could choose, or if I think each side of an argument has nearly equal validity and I have to choose between them... I know one person who's incredibly unpredictable from moment to moment on down to like, the most inconsequential behaviors, and I can't stand him. People are supposed to follow certain patterns, you know? Not perfect patterns, but generally. Patternlessness is disturbing.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 3:46 AM, Monday, May 18th]

"Capricorn brain goes brrrr"

How interesting! We had another recent poster who had an almost pathological need to be affirmed in the comments who mentioned she was a Capricorn. Her name was Ghostie and she claimed she was going to get this whole forum removed from the internet because of some comments that contradicted her.

There is not a lot of astrological talk here, so it is amazing we get two Capricorns in a one month span!

Every detail about myself that I have allowed you to know was carefully evaluated prior to release. Just so you know.

The Body Keeps the Score:
Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma

By Bessel van der Kolk M.D.

I read this book a few years ago. It was very helpful and enlightening. I highly recommend it.

When I first joined SI, veterans often wrote something along the lines of: "take what works for you and leave the rest." At first I kind of bristled at the idea, believing that everyone's thoughts and opinions had some value. What I've come to realize since is that this isn't always true. Often enough, SI can be such of mess of raw, powerful emotions and triggers that it becomes crucial to filter out the "noise." That's not always easy to do, of course. I think being mindful of this might be of great benefit to you while you're here.

As for your husband's recent behavior, it seems like he knows exactly how to push your buttons to elicit certain responses. I don't know him, of course. I only have what you've written about him. I suspect that it's probably more subconscious than a deliberate effort to manipulate or be abusive and comes from a place of deep pain, fear and confusion. I could be wrong. Please understand that I'm not trying to minimize or dismiss your own pain, fear and confusion. I'm only trying to offer a different perspective based upon my own experience. I didn't choose my username name to be clever or funny or whatever. I honestly was unhinged. I was a total fucking wreck of a human being for... well, a few years.

People instinctively and subconsciously develop relationship dynamics with everyone in our lives (friends, family, neighbors, coworkers and bosses, etc., all uniquely). Stepping back, examining and changing those dynamics is extremely difficult but oh so worth the effort. And that always starts with one's self. And while we can't force others to do this for themselves, by doing it for ourselves, we can make it apparent that SSDD (same shit, different day) isn't going to work anymore.

Some food for thought, Morbs.

That's been on my reading list for a while. I'll be on an airplane tomorrow, so I think it'd be a good time to knock that book out.

I've also been told "take what works for you and leave the rest" multiple times. It's hard for me to leave responses from people who indicate they didn't understand what I was saying or what's happening for me, because I feel like often times people will read others' responses and be influenced by their misunderstanding, if that makes sense.

Like-- and this is a vast oversimplification and a fictional example-- if I made a post about my husband needing me to say, walk the dogs while he's away, and that I'm struggling to do it because I sprained my ankle and it's among the things causing conflict in my marriage,

and someone comes along early in the conversation and says something like, "I've sprained my ankle before, and still cared for my cats just fine. I think that you're making excuses because you're harboring resentfulness towards him and don't want to take on the responsibility."

That comment a) misses that I said I have dogs, not cats, and b) that dogs require different care than cats, like being walked, and c) I didn't say I'm struggling to 'care for' them; I said I'm struggling to walk them because I am physically injured.

But others who come along may read that early comment and be influenced by it. They may come to think that I have cats, not dogs, and be primed to interpret everything I say after that as excuse making, especially if they know I'm a WS and hold the bias that all WS attempt to avoid accountability and their part in their relationship dynamics, and then I become the "bad guy" in the scenario. Then they might say things like, "I agree with person A. There's no reason why you can't pour food in a bowl and scoop litter even with a bum ankle. Your husband is away and he needs you to step up. Have you considered how he might be feeling in this situation? Have some empathy. You might have less conflict if you own up to your part in it."

And then I go, "What? That's not what I said; you must have misunderstood. Let me try explaining again. My husband wants me to walk the dogs, not scoop litter. I'm feeding them just fine. Part of our conflict is that I don't feel like he's demonstrating empathy for my injury, or grasping that I physically can't do it, not that I don't want to or that I'm lazy.."

But it's too late, because now multiple people have agreed that I'm just avoiding responsibility for the pets and my role in the conflict, and some of them will probably even call me "defensive" for trying to correct the misunderstanding.

And then I'll be like, "No. I'm not being defensive, and I'm not avoiding accountability. I said I have dogs and a sprained ankle from the beginning, and I physically cannot do what my husband is asking me to do. I understand that our dogs need to be cared for and how he might be feeling, and I want him to feel better so that he can work effectively while he's away. I offered to hire a dog walker, but he wanted me to do it, not spend money to have someone else do it, because he doesn't understand that I can't. That's why I'm saying he's the one not having empathy for me..."

But they'll just double down, instead of acknowledging the misunderstanding and adjusting their response, again, because of the bias, even if you point it out, and then the recap of the entire conversation gets so long and convoluted that they can just denounce you as "crazy" or "exhausting" and they have a convenient out without any resolution. They might even say things like, "This is exhausting; none of that is going on. Everyone here is responding to what you're telling them. They're in agreement and they're kindly trying to help you. You would do well to listen to them. I'm not going to argue with you about it anymore though. Good luck to you."

And then sometimes, that reputation follows you to other posts: now you're not only a person who avoids accountability and lacks empathy, but you're also crazy and exhausting, and that's the preconceived notion that people have of you when they respond going forward.

You can see how that's crazy-making, right?

It makes me feel better to at least point out the dynamics happening and attempt to keep the conversation on track. A part of me hopes that the explanation of them reaches some of the respondents, and maybe they'll self reflect and not do that to other people in their own lives. But most of me knows it's unlikely. I think that it's a useful exercise in exposure therapy either way, and that I'm getting better with not triggering so hard.

I do think my husband is hurting and struggling to self-regulate, whether it's from the infidelity or his own childhood trauma or both or something more. I don't think he's doing this to me on purpose, and that's congruent with him denying it and taking offense when I bring the tactics up. If I felt sure he was doing it intentionally, then I would have a much harder time staying and forgiving him... But still, there's a deep need to protect myself from that kind of abuse, and a little voice whispering, "But what if it is intentional? Are we safe?" And so I have to collect evidence and evaluate the reality of the situation, just in case, at the same time that I'm navigating his emotions.

You can see how that's crazy-making, right?

No, not really. I think it's a waste of my time and energy. I've no illusions that I can change people. I can express my own perspectives, thoughts and beliefs, opinions, and hope it might register. Beyond that, I honestly don't give a shit. But that's just me. Everyone's different in their own ways.

I do think my husband is hurting and struggling to self-regulate, whether it's from the infidelity or his own childhood trauma or both or something more.

It's both and probably something more or new. Seems to me that deep trauma triggers other traumas. Certainly did for me. It's how the brain works.

Struggling to self-regulate? Yep! I'd say that's a good possibility. BTDT. Seems common enough to me.

This is why being mindful is so important. Not saying you should be walking on egg shells. Just remember that for him being rational is difficult when his amygdala is flipping out.

You're in charge of your emotions, to some degree. While doing your best to stay mindful, you can choose how you react.

...there's a deep need to protect myself from that kind of abuse, and a little voice whispering, "But what if it is intentional? Are we safe?"

I know. You've shared where that comes from and I've "seen" how it affects you. One of my biggest hopes for you is that some day you can slay that demon so it no longer governs your life the way it seems to do.

In the meantime, work on trying to change your end of the dynamics with him and, I think, you'll start to see a way forward to better communication, a stronger bond, and greater peace.

In the meantime, work on trying to change your end of the dynamics with him and, I think, you'll start to see a way forward to better communication, a stronger bond, and greater peace.

I'm trying to figure out what that looks like in practice.

In the recorded conversation, I see some of my own responses to the manipulation tactics that appeared to be somewhat effective in keeping the conversation on track, without pointing out the tactic to him. Things like "I wasn't finished," in response to him interrupting me mid-sentence, and then continuing on with what I was saying (though it's hella frustrating with ADHD to have your thoughts scattered like that and try to remember and resume where you left off... That's kind of the root of the tactic, is that it's disruptive, distracting, and undermines your ability to express yourself clearly), saying "I want to circle back to [insert prior topic we didn't finish discussing], directly asking him to explain his dissent paired with reminding him that I care about his opinion on the matter and don't want him to feel steamrolled, anchoring parts of the conversation to one another, that way if he remembers it incorrectly or with a negative skew/absolution, it's easy to mention an anchor and draw him back to what was actually said (this is a method I use when I'm struggling to recall a conversation myself. I'll ask the other person what we were talking about before or after, if there were any particularly memorable phrases used, where we were and what we were physically doing during the conversation, the larger context, etc., and that helps jog my memory many times.)

I think if I can create for myself a sort of study guide, with a table of the manipulation tactics and how to mitigate their effects on the conversation without directly pointing it out to him in a way that causes more defensiveness, and I memorize it and get good at putting those responses in practice when necessary, that could help... I still feel like I'm walking on eggshells and preemptively managing his feelings by doing that, but I can't think of any other solutions to utilize while I wait for him to work on his own issues. Maybe if I show him, subconsciously, that the tactics aren't going to work, he'll give up on trying them? Or if this just makes him angrier, or he evolves counters to the counter-tactics, that will be evidence that he's doing it on purpose.

Im hearing, out of the gate, that remorse is waning. Then, Im seeing justification;

You pronounce that He is abusive by way of manipulation.

Ok. Please specify what and how he is doing this.

You admit that through infidelity and its concealment and defense, you have abused him, correct? Was your manipulation of him and abuse of him intentional to be able to continue having both things?

Im sure you saw that you had spent alot of time creating justifications to support that decision. You likely gaslit yourself as much as you did him in the construction of those self justifying mechanisms. I think you might be doing that again, but might not be able to see it. I think part of you knows, because you are being very non specific about the underlying actual interactions going on. I think you are leaving out the specifics because you know how they will land with the body of help you are seeking here.

Prove me wrong. What are the coping mechanisms you are indulging in that trigger your husband? You mentioned staying in a hotel by yourself, and resenting him needing checkins and reassurance.
Are these manipulations you see in him reactive to infidelity adjacent behaviors you feel entitled to continue?

I dont think you see that your intention of creating a list of ways behaviours you are seeing from him is manipulative, and how to definitively respond to each so you can get him to stop or decide if his abusive manipulation is intentional, is you yourself gameplanning intentional manipulation of him to achieve a win. He might even feel abused, because of the context.

You seem to really fear him doing things you did to him, and find being manipulated abhorrent and unacceptable. But the short half life of remorse for having done those things to him and entitlement about controlling how he is reacting to it is concerning.

Im not sure you have what it takes to set your ego down and grow out of this, but I hope you do.

You are misunderstanding the purpose of this forum. This is not an echo chamber to validate your comfort. People here are not responding out of unprovoked malice they are responding with the harsh reality of betrayal trauma because they know exactly what it looks like.

The pushback you are receiving isn't because the forum is "blinded by hurt" it's because people here recognize the wayward mindset you are still operating with. The people pushing back on your thread aren't misunderstanding you or acting out of blind bias. They are holding up a mirror to a narrative you’ve constructed to make yourself feel better.

If you only want to hear responses that agree with your perspective, this forum is not going to give you what you want. Respectfully.

And again with the illogical hypotheticals. The long hypothetical you wrote about dogs, cats, and sprained ankles is just a massive defense mechanism. You are relying on things being neat and literal but it completely falls apart because you are ignoring betrayal trauma. And, by framing the forum as biased and illiterate, you get to completely dismiss 100% of the feedback you are receiving. Very convenient for you.

Let’s talk about actual abuse. Abuse is defined by intent, control, and a power gap. Your BH is a traumatized man whose baseline of safety was unilaterally stripped away by your choices. He is operating from a place of survival, pain, loss, terror, confusion. He does not hold the power in this dynamic.

You, however, are operating with cold, calculated detachment. You are the one recording conversations. You are the one writing a study guide to subconsciously manage his feelings. You are the one running clinical experiments on a grieving BS to see if he 'evolves counters' to your moves. You are projecting your own deep capacity for calculated deception onto his chaotic pain.

Like, wow.

You are asking if you are safe from your husband, but a simple look at the facts shows you are employing a textbook case of DARVO. You are the master manipulator in this scenario. This isn't self-defense. This is you STILL actively abusing a traumatized person by vilifying and invalidating his grief so you can escape accountability.

Forever labeled nailed it.

Do you know why? Because she has been wayward. I have been wayward. It takes one to know one.

You dismiss what I have to say because I am a madhatter and "responding in pain". I am not in pain. I am in peace actually. The most peace I have been in my life and I want that for you but you resist it so fiercely by making sure you are understood you don’t even begin to understand the people who respond to you.

I was a wayward first and foremost—my husbands infidelity didn’t take that away, it only taught me more deeply about myself. It only enforced why I was on this path to be more self aware, kinder, more loving, less manipulative, more authentic. I was always on a quest for peace, and you need to evaluate what you are on a quest for because I think you are your own worst enemy. I think you are worthy of being your own best friend and acting in a way that aligns with that.

Because I learned to think and behave differently, I am at peace. My mind is quiet, there is far more room for the good stuff. I truly want this for you. I am actually in a very good place. My husband and I are years out and have truly figured out how to be married.

You spend all your time trying to get your husband to change and thinking if he could understand you he would.

Did you know that is a neurodivergent trauma response to believe that if people understood you they would change? I learnedd that recently and relate to it deeply. I think this part is true for you. And it’s keeping you in a loop. It’s ineffective because they can understand you and still believe you are the one who needs to change.

The only person who you are in control of is you. You spend far more time trying to control everyone else than what it would take to just change for yourself. Until you are ready to do that none of us can help you. When we say "that behavior isn’t healthy, all we get is a full litigated defense on why it’s needed.

If you could begin to see this isn’t about your worth or value as a person, and what it’s truly about is fear and shame, you can be let out of this prison your brain is. I am not saying it’s easy it took me years—-I have hung in there with you because I see myself in you.

I don’t know if your husband is right for you, or if he is awful to live with. But it doesn’t negate what your part in it is. Both things can be true at once.

But I can tell you from reading very carefully what you have written over a prolonged period of time, that you likely are not seeing him as he is but as a way of avoiding yourself. If you give him something real and stable to react to instead of just continually looking at all angles to manipulate things to be what you want, I have a feeling that’s truly the way you will be able to see him clearly rather than constantly putting him in reaction mode.

Because trying to talk to you is honestly exhausting- you litigate everything until it’s so confusing the other person is left questioning reality. And you have outlined here exactly why- and it’s the overthinking, over analyzing, and not having consistency—-instead you just keep throwing different things and seeing how it lands and that’s chaos. Your husband is reacting to constant emotional chaos. That’s not my pain talking, that’s what you have told us.

You are telling us you shot him in the chest twice with cheating, and he gave you a scratch by complaining about housework. The disparity between what you complain about versus what you have done is striking, and you can’t see it. You are filled with resentment towards him—-and honestly I am not saying I could be with someone who criticized me all the time. But you deal with that with your own boundaries rather than trying to prove something. You change your reaction.

Boundaries say that belongs to you, this belongs to me. I can decide what I will engage with people about and what I won’t, or what solution can be in place that I can have and be happy. The goal is not to solve the problem, it’s to look at the problem differently. The problem is how you view the problem.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:53 PM, Tuesday, May 19th]

5bluedrops,

Im hearing, out of the gate, that remorse is waning.

I think I should clarify what I meant when I said that. Remorse is not only regret for what one has done, but also the empathizing with the pain of the one who was hurt.It can be really difficult to empathize with someone else’s pain when they are actively hurting you, regardless of whether you’re the cause of their pain or not.

I ’m not making justifications for why my infidelity was somehow fine because my husband has been abusive to me. I’m expressing that I’m emotionally exhausted from navigating his pain AND mine, all of our non-infidelity-related marital conflict, and certain life stressors (like this work trip, planning our child’s birthday party, our animals’ health issues, family that lives far away pressuring me to come visit them, going back to school, etc.) I’m expressing that I don’t see him, our dynamic, or our relative moral hierarchy the way I did before.

I would never, ever blame him or any other BS for the infidelity committed against them. It is the WS’s choice alone to be unfaithful, and there are always alternatives to doing so, no matter what’s going on in the relationship. However, I also know that certain conditions in anyone’s life can make it more difficult for them to make good choices-- conditions that hurt or interact with FOO trauma or cause other intense emotions that cloud proper judgement and allow the WS to tell themselves all sorts of fantastical lies and justifications. I’m expressing that when I look back at our historical relationship dynamics, I can recognize additional conditions that contributed to my eclipse in good judgment that lead to my terrible choices. This increases the empathy I feel for my past self during my infidelity and reduces my feelings of shame. I can see more clearly how I could choose wrong.

All of those things are what I mean when I say "waning remorse." I started this post because remorse is protective, and to feel it waning is scary when what I desire most is healing, reconciliation, self-improvement, and to keep our marriage safe going forward. It’s way easier to keep myself straight when I’m connecting with my BH’s pain, when I can see him as an angel, and when there’s a [tolerable, non-paralyzing] amount of shame present and guiding my choices… I also hope that one day my BH’s pain will fade, that my view of him as a whole person will reflect his humanity accurately, and that I will have released my shame and fully forgiven myself. If/when that day comes, I’ll still need a framework in place to keep me faithful. I guess I was kind of looking for a hand-hold through the scariness, as I work on installing and reinforcing that framework. Not… whatever happened here instead. Rationalizations and minimization of the abuse, accusations of justifying my infidelity, abysmal general communication practices, what have you.

You pronounce that He is abusive by way of manipulation.

Ok. Please specify what and how he is doing this.

I have, in other responses. In general, he has systematically distorted reality in a way that erodes my own trust in my perceptions, and he has made it so I have no recourse for effecting change in our relationship through calm, rational, and fair communication. Reality is apparently whatever is most convenient for him and allows him to feel in control of the situation. And if I am denied the opportunity to express my thoughts and feelings or to ask if things can be done differently, then he doesn’t have to acknowledge any fault of his or make any effort to change. (Going back to the subject of waning remorse… This is especially hurtful because on DDay, one of the things he said was, "Why didn’t you just tell me what you needed?"— I tried— and because he knows I have a history of childhood trauma from this sort of psychological abuse. If I’m unhappy for whatever reason, obviously infidelity’s not an option, communication is no longer an option, and I’m quite sure leaving would kill me. So through the abuse, I am sentenced to misery or emotional death. What’ll it be, ma’am: heartbreak, or heartbreak?) I won’t go into specifics here again, but I have a couple websites that lists several abusive manipulation tactics and why they’re abusive/manipulative that I can send you, if SI staff permits it or if we DM each other. He doesn’t engage in all of them, but far too many for me to feel safe.

You admit that through infidelity and its concealment and defense, you have abused him, correct? Was your manipulation of him and abuse of him intentional to be able to continue having both things?

I already spoke to this in previous replies.

I think you might be doing that again, but might not be able to see it.

I would very much like to believe that this abuse isn’t happening. I’ve actively looked for concrete evidence to the contrary and have really struggled to find any. I’ve even come up with every excuse or alternative explanation that I could, and tried to give credibility the idea that maybe I am really just too sensitive… No, this shit is real. The denial of it is part of the reason why I need to do things like record conversations and date the laundry; I have been forcibly divorced from reality and I need that which injects objectivity in order to reconnect with Truth.

I think part of you knows, because you are being very non specific about the underlying actual interactions going on.

I have been very specific.

What are the coping mechanisms you are indulging in that trigger your husband?

Decompressing in the car by myself because it’s quiet and comfortable out there, getting sucked into social media and failing to meet responsibilities because I’m desperate for conversation with other adults, staying up late or planning to wake up early to catch up with those responsibilities and consequently not coming to bed with BH, locking my phone or shutting my laptop when he approaches me (usually because I feel guilty for procrastinating or because I want to pay attention to him and the devices are distracting, not because I’m hiding things. It’s a bad habit), losing my ring (We wear silicone ones and they loosen over time and fall off, and sometimes I don’t notice)… I think there are more but they are escaping my recollection at the moment. I know how to avoid doing these things, but I’m struggling with consistently implementing the plans I come up with to do so.

You mentioned staying in a hotel by yourself, and resenting him needing checkins and reassurance.

Yes, I often stay in a hotel by myself for work. I try to invite him along when I can, to show that I’m not sharing it with anyone I shouldn’t be. He doesn’t normally ask for check ins or reassurance when I’m away, but I try to provide them without him having to ask, as is recommended here. The locations for multiple of my devices (laptop, AirPods, cell phone, AirTag) and credit card purchase notifications were shared with him, as usual. I found myself reaching out to him a lot more than he did to me this most recent trip. I didn’t leave my room or the conference areas much, but the one night that I did go out, I asked if he was okay with it, and I made sure to stick to queer bars and clubs. I really wanted to shave before I went out— just to feel sexier, even if nobody was going to see or touch the shaved areas, but I refrained from doing that because I thought it would look suspicious. I told him all about my activities during the trip when I got home, in as much detail as I could remember… Maybe I was making a bigger deal out of check ins and reassurance than was actually required of me. I was just really tired. By the time I got home, answering his questions and reassuring him felt easy again. We had a pretty intimate chat last night that I feel good about.

Are these manipulations you see in him reactive to infidelity adjacent behaviors you feel entitled to continue?

I made a whole post and multiple replies here specifically about how I very much want to and intend to cease the behaviors that trigger him. This interpretation of "entitlement to continue" is entirely out of pocket and suggests to me that you are responding in bad faith.

I don't think you see that your intention of creating a list of ways behaviours you are seeing from him is manipulative, and how to definitively respond to each so you can get him to stop or decide if his abusive manipulation is intentional, is you yourself gameplanning intentional manipulation of him to achieve a win. He might even feel abused, because of the context.

Same logic: "I don’t think you see how creating a list of all the methods he uses to be violent to you and how you can defend yourself is actually game planning intentional violence against him in in order to ‘win.’ He might even feel abused if you don’t passively let him injure you, because of the context."

God help me if someone like you people ever successfully flips the narrative on what’s going on like this. I pray that you don’t successfully do this to other people. Please, God, let this person’s words fall only on the DEAFEST of ears, and let those ears hear advice that will remove them from their abusive situations.

You seem to really fear him doing things you did to him

I lied to him and betrayed his trust. I didn't make him feel crazy for wondering if something was up. I didn't deny him the opportunity to communicate with me. Yes, I believe that infidelity is abuse, and it's not okay. But neither is this kind of psychological abuse. I can't believe I have to repeat this aphorism, but two wrongs don't make a right. Like, of course I fear him abusing me this way. Somebody else who was supposed to love and protect me and be willing to listen to me and communicate effectively and fairly did this to me for the majority of my childhood. I am the only one who can protect myself. Fearing that happening to me again and making efforts to prevent it doesn't make me a bad person.

I'm not sure you have what it takes to set your ego down and grow out of this, but I hope you do.

"Put your ego down and let him abuse you," is crazy work, friendo. Maybe reconsider what you just said.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 4:07 PM, Wednesday, May 20th]

Again, you are now stating that you are definitively being abused and manipulated.

and he has made it so I have no recourse for effecting change in our relationship through calm, rational, and fair communication.

The answer is to leave. No one here is going to suggest hand-holding methods to help you tolerate an abusive situation.

If he is not abusing and manipulating you, it does follow that you are using this forum to develop strategies to manipulate him. That would be abusive to him.

How is any of this healthy?

[This message edited by Gemmy at 6:49 PM, Wednesday, May 20th]

This is what I have on my "study guide" so far, in case any of you are genuinely curious:

Interruption -> "I wasn’t finished" + continuing without acknowledging what he got out during the interruption

Veering off subject before the previous one was thoroughly discussed -> "We can talk about [that] later, if you’d like. I want to circle back to [previous subject.]" + continue where I left off

"Misremembering" in a convenient way -> "Here is what I remember…" + include undeniable anchors. If "discrepancy" in memory persists -> "It’s clear that this discrepancy in our memories is not going to allow for a productive conversation. I understand that sometimes people’s recollections differ, but I need for our memories to align where it’s important. Can we [implement solution for injecting objectivity] so we can work through conflicts better in the future?"

Reductio al absurdum > "I’m sorry that you think that’s an accurate comparison. I am specifically talking about [insert proposed solution] within the context of [insert specific scope.]"

Resistance to proposed solutions without explaining the resistance or offering counter-solutions -> "Your thoughts and feelings are important to me. I will gladly hear you out if you’d like to explain why you don’t agree with this solution, or if you’d like to propose we’d do something else. I can’t promise that I will agree, but I will hear you out fairly. I would love to discuss it thoroughly with you so we can come to a solution we both feel comfortable with." + "same team" reminder

"Always" / "Never" statements with a negative skew -> "I’m sorry that it seems that way to you. I can give you specific examples to demonstrate how the situation may be a little different than how you’re describing it, if you would be interested in hearing them" + exit the conversation if he is unwilling to hear examples: "Okay. Well, I can’t force you to adjust your perspective, and I feel that this conversation has become unproductive."

Explanations that don’t make sense, followed up with accusations of "interrogation" or defensiveness -> "I’m sorry, I’m just trying to understand what you’re telling me. I want to give you a fair chance to explain what you mean so I don’t jump to conclusions. I want to believe that you [did the right thing] because you understand why [doing the right thing] is important to me. I could use some reassurance."

Avoiding answering the next question because he’s anticipating my argument/reaction and don’t want me to be able to make the point (slipperiness/lawyerliness) -> "I’m sorry, I didn’t catch the answer to my question, which was [repeat question.]" + ignore what he said when he was being slippery + proceed with making the point

General defensiveness -> "I believe in your ability to [complete task correctly] and [insert appreciation for him doing it.] It’s just important that you [insert thing that needs to change], because [insert reason why thing needs to change.]"

Misconstruing what I say, such that I have to go back and re-explain what I meant or where we took a wrong turn in the conversation (making conversation meta so we don’t get anywhere) -> "Originally when I said [repeat what was said] I meant [summarize what was specifically meant.] Can you respond with that in mind? That would help me feel heard and understood." If misconstruction continues -> exit conversation: "This conversation has become unproductive and I don’t feel heard. Let’s take a break and try again later" + start over again later with same initial point and evaluate if he’s willing to adjust his response.

"Vomiting" points so that it's difficult for me to remember and respond to all of them/it feels like a multi-pronged, thoroughly disorganized conversation -> ask him to pause after the first one, retrieve pen and paper, and jot down vague notes while he's talking [active listening.] Refer back to notes when responding. Allow him to choose which direction the conversation will take afterwards, rather than trying to maintain several prongs.

To reiterate, the goal with this is to keep conversations on track and prevent him from using the manipulation tactics. My hope is that even if this doesn't help him realize that he's doing them, he stops doing them because he subconsciously realizes that they're no longer going to work. If he develops counters to the counters... That suggests he's doing it intentionally and is fighting to continue the manipulation tactics.

I will be thoroughly entertained by the mental gymnastics if any of you attempt to twist this into me abusing him.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 4:29 PM, Wednesday, May 20th]

"Repetition Compulsion"

GotTheMorbs, do some research on this topic. You're not gonna like it. And I'm really sorry about that. However. I think it will be very illuminating for you. IIRC, there were a couple of members who wrote about this years ago. It didn't occur to me to mention this until I read your last post.

Here's something else you probably won't like. Resolving pre-A marital issues has to take a back seat to resolving affair issues. There's simply no way around this.

My ex-wife blame-shifted. Big time! If blame-shifting was an Olympic sport, she'd have medalled. Now, I'll grant that I could have been a better husband. I have my own issues and tendencies that certainly precluded a healthy relationship. So did she, for sure!

After d-day, none of that mattered to me. Every marital issue we ever had was completely and totally irrelevant to me. Our entire relationship, from the moment we met to the day before discovery, was irrelevant to me (the singular exception being our son's birth).

The ONLY thing that mattered was her infidelity. I will not be married to a cheater. Infidelity is a deal-breaker for me, pure and simple. Always has been, always will be. For me, our marriage ended the moment she invited the OM into her hotel room. I saw absolutely no point at all, nor had any interest at all, in trying to resolve pre-A marital issues while on the verge of divorce.

I don't think I'm alone in this regard. In fact, I'd be willing to bet vital organs that the majority of betrayed spouses will say the same thing.

You are doing almost all of these things in your responses on here.

We dont consider you to be abusing us.

You might want to reconsider some things youve said.

You say your remorse is waning because your empathy for your past self is increasing and your shame is decreasing. But betrayed spouses read that and hear-

"The farther I get from the consequences, the more understandable my betrayal becomes to me."

I am not really trying to undermine your post, Gemmy by pulling this out here. You made some very important points that I hope morbs can hear.

In terms of this, however, I would like to shine a brighter light in because it’s a misconception the way it’s stated, though I am not sure you are offbase with what you are saying in full context.

This is meant to just explain what the process is and should look like:

Guilt or regret is what you feel about what you did.

Remorse is empathy towards the pain you caused them.

Shame is is actually a very useless, counterproductive thing, because it’s not actually an emotion it’s a conviction that you are just a bad person to your core. Shame gets very much in the way of a reconciliation. It’s what creates defensiveness. (Feeling how they now know you are bad too) it breeds inaction (I can’t change that I am bad, I was born this way). And it can be toxic, because it’s often something that is likely more cumulative that has been growing since a childhood trauma. None of these are conscious thoughts, they too are trauma responses.

I was molested at starting at the age of five for example, and it made me weird in ways I knew my peers weren’t and that led to a very rocky relationship with myself. It didn’t make me cheat, but when I did the cheating it brought up those base feelings from long ago. Shame also makes it hard to discuss the affair so a lot of times in theory part of what you are working on is to heal this shame.

I have an inkling, and I could be wrong, that morbs has a lot of her stepfathers voice in her. And it’s shaped her self talk and it creates a perception in her that is both self protective and distorted. If her husband criticizes anything all she hears is that she is bad. This is of course not excusing the affair, but she has a very strong codependency with other people’s moods and judgements of her. In essence it’s her shame that is causing this spiral thing she does in deflecting.

It is actually a goal of therapy for ws to become more self compassionate. Because if you can do that, then you can start seeing that criticism is really not as meaningful as it seems and it can lessen the impact. It’s also allows you to fully understand that you did some bad things, made some bad decisions but that doesn’t say end game for you, it’s actually an opportunity to be wiser, identify skills you need to work on.

Morbs, your mind is a living hell. A torture chamber. It’s your relationship with yourself that needs to be strengthened. When that happens you’ll not feel the need so very strongly to be perceived a certain way. You will see yourself as separate from those opinions. We can understand our impact on how people feel, but we can’t take responsibility for how they feel at all times. There is a lot of healing from trauma your husband needs to do that you can not control how he feels or perceives you. And I know that creates a lot of fear in you and causes all this overthinking that is actually working very deeply against you.

I think if you can work on that aspect, it will be extremely impactful on how you react when your husband expresses himself. It feee up so much room for empathy. You are so deep in your overthinking, that I am not actually sure you can always trust your perceptions and that is possibly why when your husband is speaking his reality you feel so out of place. If you look up distorted thoughts, you will find you recognize many of them.

One of the things I had to learn on my recovery was that I actually couldn’t trust my thoughts. I needed to start looking at them with different eyes. Thoughts do lie to us. We bend them to protect ourselves. I am not trying to distort reality, look it up on Google to start and you will see what I am saying.

You say you have been clear about how you have been abused but what you are describing is mostly almost a text book trauma response. It’s okay you don’t relate to it, what you need to stop doing is litigating it. Understand it’s real, and almost every bs you talk to relates to it. That’s why no one is seeing it here. That’s what I think forever labeled explained so well. You are reacting to things he can’t help at this stage.

The best way to navigate this is to put down the power struggle to prove anything. Get down on the floor with him. Hurt with him. Recognize you both have a lot of healing to do.

And for the record, while self compassion is the goal, I don’t see that you are shedding shame and feel More self compassionate. I think you are distancing yourself because the shame is so painful to you. So you deflect into all the ways he is making you feel and now you are trying to self protect from that pain.

It’s something that you have carried long before the affairs, and it’s a good time to start exploring that part in therapy. I also found rising strong to be a great illustration as to how I was blocking my own need for connection and harmony because I was so subconsciously self protective. The thing I wanted most was love and connection. I thought my husband could not or would not give that to me. When I really too a look underneath that assertion and started to see that my shame made me close off in ways I couldn’t see, and I held a big part of myself separate as a result.

I do say he wasn’t always great at providing emotional safety but once I recognized the problem I learned to ask him for exactly what I needed in the moment and I gave myself emotional safety as a result of teaching him those things, gently. By just asking not proving he doesn’t do it. You will get nowhere with the litigation and probing because it always keeps you both off separate teams. You need to work with him.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:21 PM, Wednesday, May 20th]