SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Fortunately, we don't have children, we don't own a home. We rent, and have a cat.

I've been going back and forth here. I already stayed at my dad's place for a few days last month, and he's offered to let me live with him for a year, rent free so I can build my savings, heal and get myself in order.

I haven't spoken with a lawyer yet, but I plan on doing so this week.

I'm worried that this pit in my stomach, the anxiety of her cheating again won't fade.

I almost want her to call him with me present and end it. I can't tolerate any secrecy or lingering doubts. He has to be gone. If she can't or won't do the work, then so be it.

If I move out, I'm not going to consider R after.

[This message edited by petecarparts at 5:10 PM, Tuesday, July 7th]

Peter

I hate drama. I think it seldom works. For me packing boxes is the adult version of holding your breath if mom is forcing you to eat the greens. We both know that you don’t plan on carrying this out, and that doesn’t do anything to help your situation.
I think you are making the mistake about 99% of betrayed spouses make. That’s where you might outline actions or behaviors you expect your WS to take and then sit and wait for them to do so.

You have already told her that one more infringement is the last, and yet you discover more infringements.
I’m not going to hold you to stick to your ultimatums. This scenario is precisely why I don’t think they work. Telling someone "if you do this again I will leave you. And NOW I mean it!" is weak.
What I will suggest is a slight change in attitude… A slight change in stance or power.

The change in stance I’m suggesting is this:

Rather than tell her what might happen if she does something, tell her what’s happening unless she convinces you otherwise, and then carry on doing what you say will happen. Only that "thing" that’s going to happen isn’t something as dramatic as kicking her out or packing your bags, but rather the inevitable steps necessary if a marriage is dying.

To me it’s simple, and needs an answer to two main questions:
Do I – as a husband – accept that I share my wife with someone else.
Do I want to reconcile if possible, and if yes, then does SHE want to reconcile.

Of those questions you can control the reaction to ONE of them. The first one. You can decide if you want to share your wife or not. If you are OK with that – or if losing her is immensely worse than letting her have her affair in the hope she returns… then accept it and don’t rock the boat. Maybe ask her to be discreet and use protection IF this get’s physical. It’s not great, not what I would want, but it’s something lots of people accept. Turning a blind eye to the mistress or the lover and pretending to believe your spouse is really at Bridge Club on a Friday evening with an overnight bag…

If that’s not too hot… then you really make it clear to her that although you can’t control her and won’t even try, then YOU can control what YOU accept. And that is NOT sharing her. Now – if you won’t share your partner but that same partner isn’t willing or capable of being monogamous (emotionally or physically) then what’s the inevitable outcome?

The end of the marriage.

Yes – a terrible outcome. But far from instantaneous and a long, long, step-by-step process. It’s not necessarily full of drama, but rather a realistic step-by-step process that includes a separation of expectations, roles, emotions, plans for the future and all that. With the inevitable legal process of divorce when and if it reaches that stage.

The way I describe it is this: Your journey right now shouldn’t be D or R, but to get out of infidelity. To get there you have the paths of D or R. For quite some time those paths run parallel, so it’s easy to set off on the path that’s open and clear, and then switch if the other opens up, or the one you are on closes. It’s only after quite some time – like 2-3 months – that the paths diverge, and it get’s harder to switch.

Then the second main question is relevant because no matter how much YOU want to reconcile, if she doesn’t too – and commits to it – then that path is closed no matter what you want.

In other words – rather than her having to sneak around then you let her know she’s totally free to do what she wants.
She wants her own phone plan – fine.
She wants her own password – fine.
She wants to keep in touch with OM – fine.
She wants to work "overtime" that never shows up on her payslip… fine.

Only it should be clear to her that everything of the above does not convince you the affair is ongoing – because you already assume she’s in active infidelity – but rather it does NOTHING to help you believe her when she say’s it’s over, and she’s committed to reconciling.
It’s no longer your role to prove otherwise, but her role to convince you otherwise.

Only… you are doing what you think necessary for you. Until you are convinced, she’s all on-board with reconciling the marriage you simply assume the affair is ongoing.

You start the detaching. You implement the 180. Start separating the finances. Learn what direct and implied legal commitments might be there due to the marriage and how to separate them. Decide on housing. You share with stakeholders that your marriage is crumbling because she has a lover. You stop all plans for the future.
Temporary living arrangements: Does she want to move out of the bedroom or you? Share bed but skip intimacy?
The house? Who is on the lease and is it binding for both? If so how to get out.
That trip? Ask her if the OM would buy out your part of the trip or you go alone or with a friend.

Or… if she finally commits to the marriage and can convince you that she’s being honest now… then work from that, but for now be more inclined to her still having tendencies towards the affair.

@Bigger

Thank you.

The attitude adjustment is probably the most important thing I can do right now. I have therapy after work, and she and I are going to talk when she gets home.

She's willing to stay home and not go on this trip as I'm clearly not OK and need us to have a discussion, that and I'm worried about my physical health with all of the stress that I've been shouldering for the last two months.

I need a roadmap, a plan for moving forward together toward reconciliation or I make a roadmap for us toward divorce.

I'm not willing, or able to share my partner. Even if we weren't married, I would feel the same. So she'll need to answer me plainly and honestly tonight. I cannot, and will not tolerate any more secrecy.

She has not gotten her own phone plan, she has not changed her phone's passcode (that I know of) but I'm going to ask about a number of things and I will get my answers.

Pete,

Take Bigger’s message and inject it into your veins. Not everything will be easy, but it’s effective. One may argue that it’s the only effective path to take at the moment, so logically you don’t have much of an option. So why fight it?

What’s happening to you right now is the same as if you were teleported to an alien planet. Nothing around you is as it seems. You can’t find solid ground. You don’t know if an attack is coming but your body, its adrenaline and your psyche are preparing for one. This is because your body is in the biggest fight or flight it has ever known. Picking one is hard, but these choices are ones that will remove some of that ‘chaos’ currently swirling through your head and give yourself some clarity.

Listen to Bigger’s advice. Write it on paper - manifesting what’s in your brain will free it. Walk 10,000 steps a day. Drink enough water. Get sunlight. Journal. Physically speak your thoughts to yourself. Choose to fight, flight will just lead you into an abyss.

I have designated myself as the resident nag on this site. I have repeated this so many times and I will do so in the future because I think it’s so important for your overall health. You cannot live with this kind of stress and expect to come out the other end whole and healthy. Your body is designed, from your ancestors, to look at a stressful situation and take care of it. It used to be with a spear or a bow and an arrow and then it became a gun but whatever it was it was a threat to you and you had to do something about it. This threat to you is ephemeral. You’re looking at a human body, but you can’t harm it. You are watching, and absorbing, and feeling, the cloud of poison that that body is generating around you and you still can’t do anything about it because you can’t harm that person. What you can do is remove yourself from the stress that that body is causing you. It does not matter how you do it. It matters that you do do it. Stress is accumulative. (My body will pay the price for the rest of my life for an extremely stressful job that I used to have. I’ve moved on to a much better one now, but I’m still paying the price for the one that I had.) This is what happens to bodies that live with this kind of stress long-term. We get heart problems or digestive problems or mental problems. Our bodies start breaking down. Literally breaking down. There is something in you that’s allowing her to make decisions about your health. Your health, I repeat, your health. No means no and you need to use it and mean it and stick to it for whatever decision you make. Don’t let that toxicity that surrounds you all day every day break you down to the point that you get to a point of no return. Just remember, this is your one body. It needs to be healthy.

To elaborate on the subtle difference I’m suggesting.
If I go back to my comparison of R and D being paths towards getting out of infidelity, with them running parallel for the first half of the distance…
It’s like you two are on the path where you might be in front, and clearing the obstacles in your way, and you ask her to get a cup of water. While you wait you sit down. You aren’t getting any closer to getting out of infidelity sitting. She might get a cup of water, or she might bring half a cup, or maybe she brings an empty cup or even a cup of salty water… But when she does – you are still at the same spot as when you expressed your need. This is IMHO what you have been doing to-date, and this is what I suggest you change.

What I’m suggesting is that you carry on and clear the path while she provides what you need. You can slow down, you can even pause, but you aren’t necessarily waiting for her. You have a plan, and that plan is to get out of infidelity.
She can by her actions possibly convince you that the R path has less obstacles. She does that with her actions and with being consistent, not through promises or things you want her to do and are waiting for.

Like I said: D and R run parallel courses for the first few miles. She provides what you need and you can contemplate stepping over the line from D to R.

The likely outcome? Well… I have been offering more-or-less the same strategy for several years. Those that follow it sometimes experience this wake-up moment with their spouse where the WS realizes you aren’t playing games. Aren’t participating in the fantasy and drama of their affair. No longer you and OM fighting over her, it’s totally HER call – HER choice. She’s not the prize, you are. When that happens, the general rule is the WS really realizes the seriousness and commits to reconciling.
Or… they commit to their affair… But again, when this happens you tend to get so far along your path out of infidelity that D isn’t as scary, isn’t as bad. It beats sharing your spouse, or spending more time building a future that isn’t there.

PS: Cooley - I'm fine with you being the on-site nag, as long as I retain my title as the Grumpy Old Man of SI

Thank you both.

I need to make sure I'm healthy. I know moving out doesn't mean getting papers right away, but given how she's lied to me twice, is struggling to open up more (we talked a while last night, and it didn't go super well to be honest) and I've felt sick with worry the last 2 months, I woke up this morning and thought to myself "do I care if this works out or not if I have to endure this kind of illness?"

Pete,

Brother, I'm sorry. I can read your pain right on the screen. For men, once we commit, I think we try our best to love completely. Not every man of course but guys like you and I think me. We think that's going to be returned. For women, attachment is different. Conditional. They require certain things, whatever they are. It may be different things for different women and those things may change over time. Whatever they may be, if we fail to deliver, they will withdraw their affection and perhaps seek it elsewhere.

Your wife has already told you that you were not enough. When she felt pressured to marry you or you'd leave, and when she sought a relationship with another man. She clearly gets something from you but not everything she thinks or feels she needs. I've heard it put this way: Men will sacrifice their happiness and health for their family. Women will sacrifice their family in pursuit of happiness. I don't know if that's universally accurate but it's common. She clearly gets something from you that she doesn't want to lose, at least not yet. Perhaps that's as simple as financial support and she just hasn't found a way to replace that, yet. Going only by what you've posted. It seems that she is actively pursuing a replacement though. This one guy is not really your problem, your problem is her ongoing search.

I told you in another post that these feelings didn't go away for me over the course of nearly 40 years. My wife and I have a loving and very successful relationship. We've truly built a life together; A pretty large fortune, property, etc. I still have doubts. I know that she's lied to me about her past and possibly part of our life together. I have no proof, no evidence, but I know. You have proof, evidence, an admission, caught her in several lies. That knowledge will never die and will color the rest of your relationship. You are not that far in. Yours is a relationship more simply severed than many.

You have an offer on the table from your dad. That looks pretty good from here. You've posted that you felt better after a few days with him and away from her. Your wife has already left the marriage in all but her person and I'm about 99.7% sure that her affair has gone much farther than she's said. What I think you fear is being alone. After healing, I don't think you will be. You seem like a caring man. A good woman is out there that will want that. This woman seeks something that you don't have. I've been praying for you and will continue to do so. If I knew you IRL, I'd try to support you in any way that I could. That's probably true of all the other people commenting. Have strength, brother, seek peace, you're not alone.

If you still can’t have what you would categorize as a decent conversation with her about this, it’s my view that it’s time to start making the consequences real.
Some WS just don’t respond to much if anything except consequences close to DDay.

@Onceasailor

Thank you friend.

Your offer of support means the world, but your posts are just as appreciated and valuable to me.

I think I've just got to have another serious and real discussion (bordering on confrontation) with her about the consequences of what she's done. I know I can't ever be "everything" for her or for anyone, but a healthy partnership (married or not) is all about being honest and supportive however possible for each other right?

You are right, I am pretty scared to move on from the relationship. Ten years is a long time, and I never thought I'd be married to be honest with you. But I wanted to be with her more than anyone I had ever known.

My therapist told me yesterday, people are flawed, cracked and sometimes broken. Some people fill those cracks with drugs, alcohol, cheating, gambling...you name it. Some people seek validation, some people make new friends and develop unhealthy or intimate attachments to them and can't go without them. Like getting another hit, or getting more dopamine people will do anything to keep that up. It's sad. In addition to the pain she's caused me, she's still hurting in her own ways.

You're probably right, if it's not me it'd have been someone else in this position with her. I guess I can try and talk to her more and see if she can fully grasp the severity of where she's put us. If she can't answer me honestly (this I already have doubts of) and fully (we'll see if she tries) then I have my answer.

I admire everyone here whose put in tons of work over long periods of time. The reconciliation stories are inspiring. I know it's been hard for so many of you, but I just don't think I can withstand a drawn out effort to try and save something with someone who may not want to help/save themselves.

If reconciliation isn't in the cards or doesn't work out just know its not a failing on your part. You've already done more than your share in trying to be understanding and repair things. This is on her.

That’s a very healthy attitude to have. So many have completely wrecked themselves by staying in limbo far too long. Your first goal is to remove the fear of being without her. While mired in that, it clouds everything, makes it more than difficult to make decisions or makes you make the wrong decision that you know is the incorrect one.

I guess implementing the 180 but also believing in it entirely, and in myself are the ingredients needed here to remove that fear of being without her right?

I can deal with change, anything and everything can change at a moments notice...much like how my life did when I found about her affair/cheating on me 2 months ago.

Wish I could have a handful of you here with me when I have this next/potentially last conversation about this with her.

Does anyone here have any other suggestions or advice as to how to show her that the consequences are really here? I've got boxes, I've told her I'll start packing... maybe she doesn't believe me?

I think your wife was able to sense your fear of leaving so she's not really worried about that.
That's why she thinks she can get away with cheating, because she thinks that you won't do damn thing about it.
You already admitted being scared to move on from the relationship. Which is valid. Fear of being alone,
financial hit, wondering if you will ever find another person for you are all legit reasons.
But the problem is, you're still being cheated on. Her not giving up on the other guy while being married to you
can't be anything else but cheating. If you do stay, you are with someone who is not being faithful. Maybe she's actualizing
some sick fantasy of hers where she's the prize being shared by two or more men competing for her.
It's up to you to decide what's best for you. If I were you, I would not accept it. Even if she were to recommit to you,
you're getting a conniving cheater. In what world is that a prize? Seems more like a punishment to me. All best to you, sir.

Being tough here.

She probably does not think you will leave, you talk a lot but no consequences for her actions.

She says she made a mistake. No, she made a choice. She needs to realize that.

Have you both read the suggested short book, "how to Help you spouse heal from your affair"? If she can't follow that how can there be reconciliation?

Reconciliation is very hard even when both are all in. She isn't trying.

What’s your goal by packing the boxes?

Is it – like I think – the adult version of threatening to hold your breath until you get to watch TV? Or are you packing because you are moving out?

Remove drama. Make this real, and not a soap opera. If you intend to leave then pack and leave. If you want change… then follow my advice and let her know that you are simply assuming the affair is ongoing, she’s free to chose OM if she wants, but that you are getting out of infidelity.

IMO, the parts of the 180 that you use to find and enhance your strengths are exactly the parts that help you get over the fear of leaving. And if you no longer fear leaving, you can look at leaving - and building and maintaining other boundaries - pretty objectively from the POV of acting in your own best interests.

D – Don’t
E – Even
T – Think
A – About
C – Changing
H – Her.

I think this could be a good time for Bigger's "then go make a sandwich" talk. I can't remember which thread I saw that in.

You just need to lay it all out. Tell her that as long as she isn't being transparent and honest with you, you're assuming the affair is still ongoing. She's an adult, and she can go ahead and continue carrying on with it if she wants to, but not while remaining married to you. You want to have a committed, open, honest, monogamous marriage, and you're willing to work toward that, but you can't do it by yourself.

You can ask that while you're sorting things out and figuring out the logistics of separation that she doesn't flaunt the affair in your face. You can ask her to show some modicum of respect in that she doesn't talk about him in front of you, and please do not bring him into the house. In the meantime you're getting your ducks in a row and moving forward with the divorce process.

If she truly wants to be in this marriage then you're willing to discuss that and she can do her best to convince you, but you can't move forward without the truth, the whole truth, and a lot of honesty and transparency from here on out. As it is now, that's obviously not happening. So you're going to continue on a different path, start making plans to take care of yourself, and prepare for a future without her.

I think that's the part where you calmly make a sandwich, then go start watching some reruns of Friends.

Bigger has a much better version of that buried in a thread somewhere, but that's the gist of it. You can't control or change her, but you can certainly control yourself. Your goal is to get yourself out of infidelity, one way or another.

Here's the thing tho, you have to mean it. She may or may not snap out of it. If she doesn't, then you have your answer and you know not to waste anymore time or energy on trying to salvage it. Don't argue with her. If she tries to bait you just say "if we were both trying to salvage the marriage I might be willing to discuss [whatever], but it's clear to me, right now, that isn't happening." Then go back to your sandwich.

I'm sorry it's come this brother, but you have to start detaching and take care of yourself. Implement the 180 and do what you have to do.

[This message edited by Pogre at 9:47 PM, Wednesday, July 8th]

How to do it? Brother, while she's at work, pack and go. Have her served at work. That's where she started her affair, that's probably where it's ongoing. Everyone there probably knows she's with what's his name. Heck, he'll probably be there when she's served. Post a message on your social or however you communicate to your friend group as to what she's done but block her on everything. Don't take her calls, texts, or read her emails. That's just how she'll try to manipulate you. She cut your heart out, let her suffer a little. She might not even care. Maybe her begging and sniveling is all just an act to squeeze a bit more out of you or twist the knife a little more. I don't know this woman, or you beyond this board but It doesn't sound like she's earned much consideration. Protect your own sanity. Protect your own dignity. I think you'll probably be trying to pack while looking through tears. Don't let her or anyone else, other than maybe your dad, see that.

I'll be straightforward - not to be rude but to be clear.

You are continually having conversations and threatening to start packing. These are not decisions, these are pushing a decision. You cannot continue this and for your own mental health you need to be out. Don’t worry about what’s next, your objective is to remove yourself so your can try to find a way to reduce the chaos in your head.

She unilaterally ended the marriage. If she would like to be remarried to you, you being in a different house should not prevent her from doing so. It is up to her to make decisions and take action. How you react to her actions is obviously completely up to you. You leaving doesn’t mean divorce or even a separation. Leave - get yourself healthy - see if she takes actions and consider those actions into your decisions.

You’re not going to get a decision if you are not mentally well. You’ll be dividing by zero until something cracks.