SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I don't like this new way of operating though. I mourn the loss of the feeling that I could tell her how I felt about things, and the belief that she would do the same in return. I mourn the loss of the feeling that I could bring up issues I have and have her address them in a mature adult way.

Thank You! That describes it. I couldn't put it into words. I miss the feeling of being a team and knowing that he will have my back. I mourn the loss of unguarded authenticity in myself and openness.

I have a relative that is an addict. There's a part of me that feels the same with them. No matter how long they are clean, there's always a bit of me that holds back full trust. I can't see it every changing to the extent that I would trust them enough to do something like give them any control of my finances or estate. There's always a "what if?" existing.

At 10 years out, I consider us as reconciled as I will ever be. My husband and our marriage has changed for the better in many ways. I'm glad I'm still married. I'm happy. It's still naggingly there though.

What is she going to do during hard times that are sure to come? Is she going to have my back? What were to happen if I got some disease that made it impossible for me to be the husband she wants? Would she just leave? Am I to expect another betrayal? My view of marriage was that it was two people teaming up to support each other through thick and thin, good times and bad. I don't believe people have to stay married if they are unhappy, but it should have to be REALLY bad for them to want to give up on their spouse. At least thats how I viewed it then.

Oh my gosh, yes! I wish I had chosen someone who felt the same. You can talk to your spouse before you're married about values, but he said he felt the same about that type of thing. I can only think of a few minor things he said that indicated he might not have taken it as serious as I did.

I remember one conversation I had with my husband on the day I found out about the affair. In the past, we helped out our siblings and parents financially and physically. I said, "Your parents are getting older. Do you really think she'll be there to help out or do you think she'll be out looking for the next man to entertain her?"

Living without trust with a person who deflects accountability and lies at the drop of a hat is not going to to work in the long term.

OhItsYou

I suspect you already know the answers to your last couple paragraphs. Coming to terms with that is the hard part.

I don't know that I do know the answers unfortunately. One thing this affair really hammered into my head is that I cannot know the future. I mean I was completely blind to her affair. A major betrayal from someone I had been with for twenty years and I thought I knew really well.

Part of the difficulty of this process is not knowing the answers. The uncertainty. I'm one of those people that if I know what I want, I go for it, but if I don't know, or it's unclear what the situation really is, then I'm left trying to figure that out instead of moving in a certain direction.

It would be so much easier if I knew the answers to these questions.

KitchenDepth5551

I remember one conversation I had with my husband on the day I found out about the affair. In the past, we helped out our siblings and parents financially and physically. I said, "Your parents are getting older. Do you really think she'll be there to help out or do you think she'll be out looking for the next man to entertain her?"

So many people on this site report being so much more level headed on D-day. I was a complete mess, and it took me many months just for the enormity of the betrayal to sink in. I did the pick me dance HARD.

I believe the person I am today would react MUCH differently. Can't know that for sure, but I certainly understand WAY more than I did then, and I believe I would have much less tolerance for BS of this kind again.

It concerns me that you are 10 years out, consider yourself as fully reconciled as you are going to get, and still have feelings like this. Can I ask is there a part of you that thinks it might have been better to just end it and find someone new? Or do you think you would have those same fears with this new person?

Sometimes I wonder if the pain of trying to reconcile is worth it. Would it be easier to be with someone new who hadn't already proven they can and will betray me? Would that be less triggering at least? Probably. But I'm not convinced that I would be able to relax and trust again easily with anyone.

Even getting past the "she betrayed me" part, I suspect that for the rest of my life my eyes will be open to identifying new betrayals from the people close to me. No matter who they end up being. I could be wrong, but I think the affair permanently changed that part of me.

longsadstory1952

This is a tough reconciliation with a very difficult spouse.
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Living without trust with a person who deflects accountability and lies at the drop of a hat is not going to to work in the long term.

Yes this has been very tough. Especially when I see people describe remorseful spouses and how they are so different from my wife. She is making progress, but it is agonizingly slow.

I would not describe our relationship in such stark terms as you have though.

I wouldn't say she lies at the drop of a hat, she does lie, but it's not frequent enough to cause me concern until this last lie.

I wouldn't say I have no trust in her. I trust her to not physically harm me. I trust that she really does love me, even though she betrayed me. I am starting to believe more and more each day that she doesn't want another affair. I trust that she has our children's best interests at heart; even though I don't think having an affair falls into that category, in every other way she is a great mom.

Like many people have said on this site, her betrayal is about her not me. So I try to separate the part that is her from the part that is me as much as possible.

I don't feel like it would have helped me to leave and find someone new. That's probably part of what kept me in the relationship if I'm honest. But I was older - 50 yrs old+. I'm 60+ now obviously. I would have preferred being on my own if anything. I've never been great at partnering and living together in my opinion and probably my husband's and friends' opinions too.

But leaving, maybe. I did that a few times. I still feel like I could leave and feel like my life would be great. That's something you create for yourself, if I understand anything from my healthy siblings and friends.

I am prepared to be on my own if needed. I think older people (older than me) get that way eventually in their marriages. It's probably a necessity.

If I'm totally honest, I have some feelings around you leaving. It's probably my own bias, but maybe there is a window there to create a healthy relationship. I don't know your situation.

Being here, I've heard people saying that they feel like they are too old to start over or have a new partner. I have never felt that way. I have always felt attractive and that I could get a partner at any time if I wanted to do that. I'm not that physically attractive, but it's out there. It's just out there in my experience.

I am happy in my marriage. I don't believe in soul mates. I believe I would be happy alone. I believe I could be happy with someone else. I'm happy.

If I'm totally honest, I have some feelings around you leaving. It's probably my own bias, but maybe there is a window there to create a healthy relationship. I don't know your situation.

Theevent, I read this over and want to explain what I meant about maybe having a window. I'm early 60s. Most of my friends are that age +/- 10 years. The majority of us agree that we'd never get married again. It's not that we had a bad experience; it's simply that we don't see the reason to marry again. So I don't really mean healthy relationship. I mean you might not want to get married after a certain age or time.

This conversation came up recently from a friend whose father in-law was getting remarried at 80+. It's his 5th or 6th marriage. We all agreed that we weren't even sure we'd want to live with a partner.

Recently we sold a house. It a decent size- 4 bedrooms, 2 primary suites, multiple living spaces, and nice outdoor spaces. We had the couple over for drinks. She had bought the houses, and they were newly moving in together. They had previously lived in a city as nextdoor neighbors. We're in a small-town area with nearby outdoor activities.

She confided that she was having a hard time adjusting to living together, but they enjoy the area. They even have separate bedrooms, and no plans to get married or combine finances. She said all her friends thought she was crazy, because they thought her living situation was perfect before.

So, I do think there was probably a window for me. It leads me think if you want to marry again, you should probably move on sooner if it's not working out with your WS. It has nothing to do with availability of partners though.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 3:25 PM, Wednesday, July 8th]

When my wife and I were going through MC the topic of White Lies came up and the therapist was okay with them which was a red flag for me. I said a lie is a lie. She said let me give you an example, let's say there's a man that I find attractive and my husband asks me if I am interested in that man and I answer "no honey"

I said you just lied to your husband's face and she said no, I reassured him and I said no you didn't, you lied to his face. He asked you a question and you gave him a false answer. She said I told a white lie to spare his feelings

And I'm supposed to take marital advice from you? She did disclose to us that her husband did have an affair and connecting those two together makes me think she, given her age, she is older, has no problem lying to her husband because he had an affair. I still wonder if a therapist can ever be objective when they have a personal history of an affair.

I don't think your wife's lie about her experience would have raised a flag with you had she not had an affair but when you hear a lie told so easily it is understandable to wonder what else is she capable of lying about. Does she lie to me about where she was earlier because even though she wasn't doing anything wrong I may have a problem with where she was?

I would bring it up. I would say you're giving me doubts because you make it look easy to lie and given the affair history this raises a red flag

I have an odd ability to remember tiny little details from decades ago. There have been times when my wife said something and I reply with that's not what you said or that's not what you did and she knows my memory is rarely wrong.

During one of our early MC sessions I said one time after a fight my wife and I were walking and talking and my wife said that she knows she is a good person and were our marriage to end she knows she would find somebody else. Our therapist's mouth fell open, she looked at my wife and asked did you say this to which my wife replied I don't remember saying that to which I replied I remember where we were standing and if you give me some time I can go through my journal entries and find the exact date. This pissed off my wife and she said YEAH IM SURE YOU COULD

It's understandable to be hypersensitive to any lie no matter how small or "innocent". I would bring it up and I would pay close attention going forward to see if you can establish a pattern. When somebody starts an affair the first time he/she has to lie to their spouse is the hardest, but the subsequent lies become easier and easier.

[This message edited by WB1340 at 4:09 PM, Wednesday, July 8th]

WB1340,

That's interesting because, in a way, these are two almost opposite accounts of your WW. Your MC and WS agree you should have white lies to "save" your spouse's feelings. Yet, your WS will give you her frank thoughts about finding someone new if she's upset or angry at you? Is the conclusion that the purpose is to intentionally hurt you?

I mean, yeah, if my husband had said that to me I would probably have agreed and said I felt the same. I would not feel hurt. Why do they think the white lies are important though? Interesting. It implies manipulating your feelings for their benefit is the goal.

If I think about it, I guess I do believe that about white lies and comments that are meant to be hurtful for some people. White lie: I don't want to hurt you, because it benefits me for you to feel otherwise. Honest (hurtful to you) comment: I do want to you, because it benefits me for you to feel that way.

I will say that you saying that she is an older woman whose husband cheated on her makes her more open to lying and accepting lying seems odd. Is it that she's a woman? Is it that she's older? If she's a man and/or younger, would you have felt differently? I don't understand that. If you don't feel that a BS can have a valuable input into advice, why are you here?

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 5:14 PM, Wednesday, July 8th]

This is my issue with your situation, based on what you share here and in other threads.

I think validation is the main cause for infidelity. I think it’s extremely rare (maybe even bordering on nonexistent) that it’s "true luuuuve" or soulmate or whatever. It’s more that someone – the AP – is giving you something that validates that you are something special.
We have typical gender-based descriptions of this, and like all generalizations then they aren’t too valid, but might help understand: A man get’s hit on or can approach a woman to flirt, she falls for him and he’s thinking what a stud he is, still got it and all that. A woman is approached by said guy, she feels special and then ends up on her back, thinking this is so hot, he’s so into her and she’s still sexually attractive. Hasn’t got much to do with emotions, hasn’t got much to do with who the OP is (explaining why relationships founded in infidelity seldom last once they get to know each other…) but nearly EVERYTHING to do with validation.

We all need validation and we all seek validation. Even those that pretend no to, the get validated in how cool they think they are. But we tend to get it from healthier sources. Like when you bench 10 more pounds, get a raise, a customer praises you, your neighbor asks you how your roses got so big – after you toiled for hours to help the grow. We even get validation from our kids hugging us, from Rover being excited when we come home, from our spouse smiling at us, from paying all the bills and still have some cash in the account…

I think one of the more common form of false validation is work-related. We tend to overstate our abilities. We oversell ourselves. I personally would rather hire someone that admits his limitations, but has a path on how to overcome them, rather than someone that claims to be able to cure cancer AND the common cold.

So when your wife was asked to take part in the podcast… for a mentally healthy person then being asked might be validation enough. After all – they don’t just ask any HR specialist, accountant, teacher… (whatever she does) to the podcast.
But it wasn’t for her… She needed to fluff the decorations as a form of validation for herself: Look at me – I’m special – I have all this.

In my list of healthy validation I mentioned benching 10 more pounds. When she adds those years – makes those white lies – it’s like you then add 30 more pounds to the bar and then loudly let everyone at the gym know that you just benched 260 pounds… despite 240 being a darned respectable weight.

THAT is what worries me about her.
If my theory is correct then a need for validation was a major factor in her affair.
She still has a need to get validation – and since it’s a lie – unhealthy validation.

I read in your past posts that you two did MC but that she hasn’t done IC.

I think she needs IC. I think it’s even more important than MC at the moment.

You already received good advice about what to do.

I would have suggested the same so nothing to add.

What I can point your attention to is this:

White lies are a symptom. The cause is the ego and it’s craving for external validation, the same impulse that has driven her to infidelity before.

The question is: who’s is at the steering wheel now? Her ego building fantasies and feeding of external validation, or her reforming self just still vulnerable to slip in old patterns?

Saying that she might be in the middle of the process, but you should observe where she is tilting, healing (still imperfect) or relapse

KitchenDepth5551
I appreciate the clarification. I was wondering about that part a bit.

It leads me think if you want to marry again, you should probably move on sooner if it's not working out with your WS

I would agree if I were convinced it was not really working out. The hard part about this process is how she is doing just enough to keep me from leaving, but not enough to help me feel like the storm is really over so to speak. It's a strange limbo that I find myself in. Is she making progress? Yes. It's just agonizingly slow progress. So slow in fact that it's severely testing my patience. I consider myself a VERY patient person in general, but in this case my patience is wearing pretty thin. Two years is a LONG time to be blamed and criticized by her especially after the ginormous betrayal she did.
WB1340

I don't think your wife's lie about her experience would have raised a flag with you had she not had an affair but when you hear a lie told so easily it is understandable to wonder what else is she capable of lying about. Does she lie to me about where she was earlier because even though she wasn't doing anything wrong I may have a problem with where she was?

100%!
Before her affair I noticed white lies every once in a while. They never really bothered me because I believed she was overall a good person and wouldn't take things too far. I still think at her core she is a good person, but clearly she did take things much too far.

I still wonder if a therapist can ever be objective when they have a personal history of an affair.

I don't know if anyone can be fully objective. But I can tell you our previous couples therapist had no personal experience with infidelity, only clinical training, stuff like Gottman training, and he was less than useless. It would have been just as useful to watch a youtube video about Gottman methods. Our current therapist has flaws for sure, and I haven't decided if I want to continue with him or not because of them. But at the very least he understands how it feels to be betrayed, so thats something.
Bigger

I think validation is the main cause for infidelity

I think this is exactly right. Healthy validation vs unhealthy validation. It's true in my wife's case at least.

I read in your past posts that you two did MC but that she hasn’t done IC.

Not quite right.

She has actually been doing IC from the start, and has continued these two years. It was her idea, and I didn't have to push her to do that at all which is a positive sign in my mind. I also didn't have to deal with trickle truth for the most part either which is another positive.

It was also her idea to do MC. She wanted to start that right away after D-day, which I thought was a good sign as well, but I have since come to understand that she wanted to do that because her view is that we "had a bad marriage", and that that "bad marriage" was the main thing that led her down the road to infidelity. Of course this "bad marriage" was news to me.

Logically (in her mind) if we fix the "bad marriage", we address the root cause of her infidelity. So she has pushed HARD for me to "take responsibility for my part in our bad marriage", and other things like that. Saying things along the lines of "affairs don't happen in a vacuum", and "you contributed to the state of the marriage". I have complained about this extensively in previous posts. I have never said our marriage was perfect, thats not possible, my complaint is that she is linking my actions causally to her choice to betray me. I reject this logic 100%.

Unfortunately our therapist said something along those lines as well when I complained that she is again bringing up the past instead of discussing the affair. He said "well clearly there were problems in the relationship or there wouldn't have been an affair. Those problems need to be resolved.". I couldn't believe I was hearing that from someone who's wife cheated on him, and who told me many times that the only person responsible for her affair is her. Crazy.

I'm strongly leaning towards finding a new therapist for us.

It looks like the vast majority of couples therapists believe similar things, which makes this search very difficult and time consuming.