SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

... To see where they're at? Whether life's been kind to them, or if they've suffered from their choices? If they've made any moral movement, or have any regrets about how things went down, and what they would do differently, if anything? If they've changed?

I was an AP for many married men when I was 17-19. Sometimes I think about them and wonder if they're at least as sorry about their infidelity as I am for participating in it. I wonder whether they reconciled, got divorced, or if they were ever even found out. If they had more affairs after me, or if they stopped cheating. I wonder how their kids are. (Well, probably most other people's histories aren't quite as full of infidelity in its various forms...)

Several months ago I'd gotten an email from a (previously?) married man I had started dating while I was still in high school, just a reach-out-and-see type of email. My only response was "It's been 9 years," trying to say like, "dude. it's over. move tf on already." But he was like "It has! How time flies... How are you?" and I face-palmed and blocked him. Obviously that one has no ragrets.

Sometimes I think about my AP, and wonder about him. During the A, he admitted he got off on "stealing" me from my H, which was sickening. He didn't own up to anything I suspected he'd lied about, or any details I questioned because they didn't make sense. A few days after DDay, with H's permission, I gave him an earful over text about how wrong what we did was and how much it had hurt my husband, and hurt me to see him like that. The AP apologized for hurting me. That was the last time we spoke. Periodically over the next several months, he would just send a "hey" text, until I finally felt certain enough that he wouldn't blackmail me at work (and disrespected enough!) to block him... It feels weird to think about how much regret I feel for what I did, and how much work I've put in to try and change, and to think that he very well could be out in the world conducting himself in the exact same way he had been a bit over a year ago, soliciting married women.

Anyone else?

Do you feel like maybe you should reach out to the wives, and warn them their health may be at risk?

I don't think I would be able to find them, at this point. I don't remember many of the men's first names, let alone their last, nor their addresses or places of employment or anything that might be helpful in locating them.

There was one guy I slept with a few times in high school while he was dating his now-wife. I follow her her on instagram, so I could contact her if I chose... Apparently he lost his virginity to me; I don't know whether that might have been important to her or not, or if she would want to know, or if she already does and reaching out to her would just be a painful reminder... It's was such a long time ago, too. Surely he's a different person than he was at 17?

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 12:32 AM, Saturday, October 3rd]

It's an interesting question. I don't know. Gosh I wish sexuality was not fraught with such emotional pain.

Is this about you thinking of contacting these men or them contacting you? I have a very short dating history. Two total since adolescence--the first of whom was a little crazy, so I've never felt any desire to contact her. (Besides, I can no longer even recall what was her surname, which might well since have changed.) But, from what I gather, it's not uncommon to contact an ex-lover. I wouldn't necessarily find "contact" to be problematic, but I suppose my question would be: what would engaging in "contact" mean... for you? Like: let's suppose you participate in "contact"... a year from now, what potential differences could be meaningful and desirable for you, arising from the contact? Is "contact" fundamentally about a desire to reconnect with the men, with yourself from that epoch of your life, or both? Though other posts of yours and this one, I gather that you've acquired a completely different set of guiding principles and character than perhaps you had during the window you referenced. I can imagine someone who has matured emotionally as much as you have since that period wanting to "knock some sense" into yourself at 17-19 years old, but where I would be careful is in contemplating whether "contact" with these men would really afford you the satisfaction you might be wanting. It also occurs to me to offer up that, while I don't technically know the age of the men involved in your affairs at 17-19 years old, not too many men marry at ages terribly close to yours in that period from your life. I know you advocate that a person should assume responsibility for the wrongs the person commits, and I thinks that's generally excellent advice. However, while I can't per se claim you were totally angelic in that era of your life, given your participation in affairs that you perhaps knew might risk harm to others, I want to emphasize that I find the married men with whom you had the affairs at such tender ages to bear the overwhelming share of guilt for whatever harm ensured. You were basically a child playing with toys new to you in that period of your life--even if you offered or brazenly threw yourself at them at the time. Studies have shown that most people's person's inner sexual feelings don't begin to align with their real-world actions and relationships until people are between 18 years old and their early-to-mid-20s. Brain development as a whole remains substantially active even significantly beyond that period (https://blog.ochsner.org/articles/at-what-age-is-the-human-brain-fully-developed/). The onus was on the married men to have exercised better judgement. If your intention, now, is to apologize to the spouses of those men for participating in affairs, I think I would ask whether your apology is actually likely to bring anyone meaningful consolation at this point and whether it isn't really the men involved who should be apologizing--including to you? I think you largely deserve to forgive yourself for whatever came of the affairs you had at 17-19 years old.

On the other hand, if you are able to define an authentic good that could emerge from "contact" with a specific former lover, I would endorse the contact--subject to your current spouse's "blessing" being secured.

Yet again, if "contact" is purely a whim for you, I'd remind you of what curiosity "did to the cat" and encourage you to leave the past in the past. Good luck!

[This message edited by Unconventional at 9:25 PM, Sunday, October 4th]

Hi Morbs,

Sorry to threadjack… but I was having (still having) an awful day today and just reading something from you comforted me (something like: oh look, your fellow Morbs has posted. This day feels a little less lonely now).

I will reply to your question later at some point.

Unconventional,

It's more like a passing urge born of curiosity than anything my internal committee would seriously consider engaging in. Someone from the Subconscious Bad Ideas Department drunkenly bursts into the board room, blurts out "Heyyyy do you guys remember [insert name of fling]? We should totally see how they are and what they're up to!" And then they stumble back out while everyone else in the board room rolls their eyes and returns to business...('Cept for maybe the Philosophy Department members, but they often engage in wandering, pointless discussions for discussion's sake.)

I definitely was not "angelic" during that time frame. I wanted what I wanted and I justified whatever I did to get it, whether that was leaving dishes in the sink in my college dorm suite. ("I'm drowning in schoolwork; cut me a break! You guys would be too if you actually took a serious course load...") and trashing my half of the room, or sleeping with married men because I wanted sex, dates, or my tuition paid, or some other morally untoward behavior... I've come to terms with it and changed since then, thankfully. (And I apologized to my suite mates!)

If your intention, now, is to apologize to the spouses of those men for participating in affairs, I think I would ask whether your apology is actually likely to bring anyone meaningful consolation at this point and whether it isn't really the men involved who should be apologizing--including to you? I think you largely deserve to forgive yourself for whatever came of the affairs you had at 17-19 years old.

I've pondered that. I haven't come to any conclusions on the matter.. I don't have to torture myself too much with it because I doubt there's any way for me to find their spouses anyway, except for the one whose boyfriend I slept with in high school.

PS: the whole "your brain isn't 'finished' developing until you're 25" is just a pervasive misunderstanding of the research. The reality is that the brain continues changing in various ways through the entirety of the human lifespan; it is never 'finished' developing. The study that the misunderstanding comes from only studied individuals up to age 25, and only concluded that the frontal lobe "continues developing into the mid-twenties." I was, in short, old enough to know better. I just didn't care.

***

LonelyGuilty,

Sorry to hear you're having a bad day! I sincerely hope it gets better for you. Hugs

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 11:31 PM, Sunday, October 4th]

Hi Morbs,

Interesting post.

Yes, lately I have been thinking about it.

I have no desire to talk to or ever seeing again the AP. For me, it’s more about fairness.

I hope karma gets him.

I don’t feel vengeful or bitter that I am paying the consequences of my actions and he isn’t (there aren’t many things I am proud of lately, but I am "proud" I am owning my past actions and I am doing all I can to become a safe and honest person).

But lately, it doesn’t sit right with me that someone so deeply selfish and so ready to hurt people all around (in name of his entitlement) can carry on just like that - I can’t say more for the sake of anonymity.

It feels weird to think about how much regret I feel for what I did, and how much work I've put in to try and change, and to think that he very well could be out in the world conducting himself in the exact same way he had been a bit over a year ago, soliciting married women.

This exactly

PS: thanks for the kind words

[This message edited by LonelyGuilty at 9:51 AM, Monday, October 5th]

I think it’s natural or Facebook likely would never have become so popular.

But you have identified there is a difference between thought and action. You may wonder but pursing is likely not healthy, and blocking certain people or not going down the road of returning interest or communication is best. Every friendship should be above board and known to your spouse.

I stopped wondering about the ap many many years ago. I remember for some time wondering did he disclose all his affairs and his true nature to his wife? True nature meaning it was obvious he held a lot back with her, which fits with the whole avoidant theme. But at some point I realized that the only reason that I wondered that was to lessen my accountability towards her—-which of course is ludicrous. My participation on an affair with her husband didn’t lessen because I wasn’t the first or because he felt he couldn’t be himself. It’s was only justification that I wasn’t letting hang out rather than confronting it. The reality is I didn’t care about his wife when we were doing what we were doing and I needed to own that.

I think my curiosity stems from wanting to update my mental model of those people so that it's accurate, and possibly a little bit from wanting to preserve a sense that justice exists, even if I know that's unfortunately not how things work. I feel powerless to make things right, or make a difference at this point, so I wonder if my previous partners made anything right themselves, and whether their families are okay.

Only tangentially related, but I'm also experiencing the discomfort of feeling almost certain that my AP was partnered, despite the fact that he insisted he wasn't. I couldn't find any evidence because he doesn't live nearby or use social media, but just the times that he would respond vs go quiet were strange, and in one picture he sent I saw the reflection of a woman in his sunglasses (which could have just been a friend, but my instincts say was not.) I don't like not knowing for sure.

I recall thinking that if he was partnered that I would have cut it off with him sooner... As if my being married wasn't enough of a reason to cut it off in and of itself. Bizarre and stupid.

No Stop Sign, So...

I agree that it's only natural to wonder.

I'm also experiencing the discomfort of feeling almost certain that my AP was partnered, despite the fact that he insisted he wasn't.

This is part of empathy. You weren't able to put yourself in the position of the husband or wife in the other relationships with married men; now you are.

I think your feelings will change with time. For example, how might you feel when your own daughter is high school age? Based on my personal experience, you might have bewilderment or confusion or anger at adult men hitting on her. You might feel something for your younger self and what your experienced. I know I do. I have sons. I'm a woman who has friends/relatives with young adult women as children. I feel so protective of both sexes.

I think you will feel things when your daughter/son is that age. They seem so young and impressionable. I can't imagine an older person taking advantage. It feels disgusting.

You are also maybe? at the age and life experience of the women who were partners of the men with which you had affairs. What do you think of that experience for them? Your marriage is struggling. What would you say to a woman trying to have a relationship with your husband?

I feel for you. Your timeline of your history is not my own upbringing or experience. It's harsh. I won't sugar-coat that. Dang, Girl! You are doing OK!

Question: What do you think a healthy response would be to your asking a previous AP how they are doing? I think the healthiest response would be to ignore you. Are you ok with that? Does that feel bad?

Wow… Married men when you were 17-19…
So I’m guessing they were +25 years of age…
At some point a +5 year age-difference doesn’t matter. Like a 31-year-old man/woman can date and marry someone 35-45 and it wouldn’t cause people to go hmmm, a 24 year old with a 31 and so on… But I personally think that at 17-19 something like a 2-3 year gap would normally be considered an acceptable range, and that is for single, consenting people.

I won’t cast any moral judgement on you for choosing to be a partner in infidelity at that time. At 18 society tends to view people as "adult" in the sense you can vote, join the army, drink in many countries/states, sign for a loan and so on. You are considered responsible, accountable. Yet we all know that at 18 we still have a long way to go, maybe especially if the years leading up to 18 have been troubled.

But I will cast my moral judgement at married men, over 20 years old, who then utilize the opportunity a much younger woman offers…

With that in mind I also look at why one might want to reach out to them.
I wonder if 12 steps in AA might have a role, or maybe give us a clue. The 8th and 9th steps are:

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Only… I don’t see you as the harmer. I don’t see you as the cause. No matter if you hit on them, propositioned or whatever. The onus is on the adult – the allegedly/supposedly more mature person to say no.

Maybe some of the men might remember you and apologize. Who knows – maybe some of them have gone through 12-steps and decided that if they made amends directly they would be injuring others. I know that for example those that have been abusive in past relationships are advised not to contact the abused person, at least not directly.

But I think it’s more likely that someone that is older, in a marriage, and yet willing to fool around with a 17-year-old… just doesn’t give a hoot. You could contact them and maybe they would apologize, maybe they would try to hit on you again, maybe they just don’t remember you. I doubt the wife they were cheating on is their present wife - if they are married.

I just wouldn’t bother.

-
I guess my stance is influenced by life-events:
A niece who at barely 17 fell for a 24-year-old. Married him despite warnings from – amongst others – me, had 2 kids and then, when she was 26, caught him having sex with a 15 year old… I think the kink for "barely 18" pervs is really strong as evident in that being a known brand-name in porn, and many of them don’t see it as wrong. They are long divorced, and he’s on to his third wife. I am about 99% certain my niece would have been dumped at the ripe old age of 30 by this perv.

I think my curiosity stems from wanting to update my mental model of those people so that it's accurate, and possibly a little bit from wanting to preserve a sense that justice exists, even if I know that's unfortunately not how things work. I feel powerless to make things right, or make a difference at this point, so I wonder if my previous partners made anything right themselves, and whether their families are okay.

Makes sense- I have experienced the same. And I think this is natural too.

My tangent about the ap and his wife was just me kind of reflecting in the subject in general.

I agree with kitchendepth some of this sounds like your capacity for empathy is growing and you are applying it sort of retroactively. It makes sense to me as I also had some retroactive type upgrades as to understand some of my own patterns and evolution.

I didn’t feel "taken advantage." I quite liked older men, and I preferred them to boys my age, who were often skinny, couldn’t afford nice things, grow facial hair or hold deep conversations, and many had problems with erectile dysfunction… I just feel that the Millennial males are a real downgrade from Gen X. (And half of the Zoomers I work with don’t even have driver’s licenses! I don’t think they got any better) I always liked a few facial wrinkles and salt-and-pepper hair...I had agency, and older [often married] men were what I chose. Even now, my husband is 25 years older than me, and my AP was 7 years older (and I thought he still had some maturing to do at 35! Part of the fantasy with him was that I could pretend I was young and unencumbered again, instead of an "old lady" with a family and responsibilities holding me down…And don’t get me wrong; I love my family and I wouldn’t have settled down any earlier or later than I did… I just didn’t appreciate that kind of freedom, of being able to drop everything at a moment’s notice and do whatever I want because no one is depending on me, when I was younger. Who does? I digress…) Older people dating younger *adults* (not 17 yos or dependent high school students) don’t necessarily take advantage of them; some of them really helped me and taught me things and encouraged me to pursue my dreams… They used their greater life experience benevolently. Husband included in that group, of course. <3

I think that no one will ever feel good enough for my daughter, and that probably the best option for her will be someone a bit older (certainly not by 25 years, but maybe like 5-15, once she’s 18 and out of high school and living on her own.) Someone in great physical shape with a brain in his head, who makes good money, and can give her a nice life and support a family. That’s how I feel about my stepdaughters, who are 18 and 20 now; the boys the younger one brought home just weren’t it. The eldest hasn’t started dating yet, but I often wonder if she prefers women. I just hope they find someone on their intellectual level at least, you know? They’re bright, competent young women. They deserve equal life partners, whatever that looks like for them.

Question: What do you think a healthy response would be to your asking a previous AP how they are doing? I think the healthiest response would be to ignore you. Are you ok with that? Does that feel bad?

What a great question! I hadn't even considered that they might ignore me, but I agree. It would be a good sign if they did.

Your marriage is struggling. What would you say to a woman trying to have a relationship with your husband?

We've been doing pretty good recently, but I'd tell her to buckle up, because he can be a real rollercoaster!

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 2:32 AM, Wednesday, October 7th]

I preferred them to boys my age, who were often skinny, couldn’t afford nice things, grow facial hair or hold deep conversations, and many had problems with erectile dysfunction… I just feel that the Millennial males are a real downgrade from Gen X.

Xennial here. Maybe not so much "erectile dysfunction"--a fierce woman like you just intimidated and scared the living sh-- outta them!

[This message edited by Unconventional at 12:55 AM, Thursday, October 8th]

Wait... What!? I don't understand.

I preferred them to boys my age, who were often skinny, couldn’t afford nice things, grow facial hair or hold deep conversations, and many had problems with erectile dysfunction… I just feel that the Millennial males are a real downgrade from Gen X.

Xennial here. Maybe not so much "erectile dysfunction"--a fierce woman like you just intimidated and scared the living sh-- outta them!

Are these comments supposed to be helpful and healing? They seem disrespectful and dehumanizing to a whole group of people.

There's seriously some strange posts here lately.

But hey, I dunno. I prolly hafta back out of this discussion and leave it to the big brains.

No. I certainly would love to be helpful--and Lord knows I need oodles of help myself! I do usually try to post helpful and/or searching comments. But that last post from me was purely an attempt at humor. Nothing more. Now... in writing that... I wasn't intending to insult anyone or any group. So... if anyone feels insulted, then: I apologize. But, I do believe that laughter is a good medicine. It's not always "deep," but does that mean it's wrong?

Look... Here's something more patently inspirational...

[This message edited by Unconventional at 3:31 AM, Thursday, October 8th]

I noticed something this morning as I was getting ready for work. I think there’s a difference… probably more than one difference, actually, in how some of us may appraise affairs. I think some of us may see affairs as wrong primarily through the lens that an affair hurts a partner. For example, one could imagine a couple sanctioning extramarital sex—for either partner’s pleasure— and assessing extramarital sex as "no big deal" because nobody gets "hurt" through emotionally empty sex (absent pregnancy or disease transmission).

I wonder if that motivation for finding an affair to be wrong (i.e. The partner being hurt) is partly why it is quite common here to advocate so adamantly that a WS must understand and lean into a partner’s suffering? Because that’s where the motivation will come from not to repeat?

It’s interesting… back when I was weighing whether my disordered relationship was wrong (yes, it was), I made a fairly deep dive into the teachings of my marriage’s religious faith regarding the covenantal duties of marriage. One thing I don’t think I ever weighed, given that my faith teaches: "anything goes, sexually, within a marriage—so long as both partners consent"—is that my faith also teaches that sexual expression is proper **only within** the married dyad. In other words: cuckolding and swinging and open marriages, etc. are wrong, even if both partners consent to it. Among other implications, this means that it is possible to acquire guilt through extramarital sex, even if the BS is "ok" with the sex. It is possible to acquire motivation against recidivism even without a BS being willing to share her/his feelings.

I am in an age gap marriage and my ap wa 20 years older than me. What I am about to say it took a long time to realize was true for me- and it is maybe-even probably-not true for you.

I think my choices in men when I was younger boiled down to the same thing you are talking about here. I thought they weren’t mature enough, I needed someone steadier.

But in many ways I also think that there were issues with my dad and our connection that left me looking for some of it in men. Because while I wanted the mature, I had a lot of growing up to do myself.

The other thing that is true is when we were younger this also led to a power dynamic in our marriage that I think only existed in my own head.

I always saw him as an adultier adult, and there was deference there that shouldn’t have been. I feel like at some point the scales tipped and I came to believe that not only was I his equal, there were strengths I had that he did not.l and this diminished him to me because of the way I thought of myself.

And in some ways, only in hindsight, I can see there was a rebellion as this transition occurred that was unfolding in the years leading up to my affair. Much like the same way we rebel with our parents when we don’t understand what independence really is we only know we want it.

It was almost like there had been a pedestal I put him on him on that shifted. But that shift involved elements where I needed to grow in areas concerning respect, loyalty, etc.

In many ways the downturn of our marriage had to do with seeing him more like the human he was and feeling a bit disoriented about it in the way I once realized my mom wasn’t always right, in fact she usually is very far off base and her guidance abilities no longer seemed valid as I had outgrown her capacity to understand. My world was bigger - I had more education, more experiences, less fear- which created a life that was harder for her to comprehend so suddenly all her unsolicited advice rang hollow if not at times foolish and fear based. Our roles changed. And that’s the only thing I can compare it to in our marriage.

Mind you, from his standpoint this would all seem baffling. He included me in all decisions, and always treated me as his equal.

I now see my shaky self trust was a measuring stick. I found myself leading some very important aspects of our life, suddenly I didn’t trust that construct and missed having an adultier adult.

I don’t really think there is a perfectly direct link to who I ultimately cheated with, but it’s ironic I doubled the age gap in my choices.

And later when he had an affair, then I really started to question things. I look back and realize that if someone was my equal they didn’t have the same value because. The value I placed in myself was much lower than it should have been.

Identifying the root of that toxic shame that had me believing all this and working for years to eradicate it and replace it with healthier views helped me not see a partner who was equal to me as less than what I wanted.

It’s sort of the old Woody Allen quote about not wanting to be in a club who wanted me as their member.

And I can see that’s why I was always in subservient mode trying to earn the love of someone I didn’t feel I deserved earlier in the marriage. This was the paradigm I was more comfortable with.

This was not meant as advice to you or even a commentary that I am asking you to try on. It’s simply what you wrote had me reflecting and I wanted to explore it more by writing it out. Maybe it will help someone out there, not sure.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:01 PM, Thursday, October 8th]